Thanks for the info Gary. I'm not sure we need to know the HP number the way TT does we just need to compare each other ... I think .

I'm very interested in how we, as a class, can find ways to utilize this tool to better our class and refine our philosophy of "low cost, equal racing."
I'm sure we can find method to implement this without severely disrupting the current rules, or requiring drastic changes to cars.
What I don't want to see happen is see our class go the way of other spec classes and have people thinking they have to have a "pro" engine, or "this and that", to win. Hopefully, we can achieve that through traqmate data or other means.

I remember reading a post a long while back, I think from Tim (maybe) stating that, in 944 spec you can (but not necessarily) win with a "junkyard" motor, I believe this should be true for the spirit of our class. It is possible that this statement may still hold true today, but the perception I'm getting from other racers is that they feel they need to have a rebuilt engine in order to be competitive. That perception, whether true or not, is not healthy for the class.
Now, a junkyard motor may not be as reliable as a rebuild motor, but there's no reason that someone with a stock motor should be losing to someone that has the means to build a "competitive" motor.

This is a drivers class, not a builders class.
I am on board with any reasonable decision that keeps it/ reverts us back that way.

Chris

The numbers turned out to be fairly consistent when I went back and started looking at them more closely. I've looked at 100 or so laps and the range was less than 5% plus or minus on max hp within sessions. As far as where the max hp was coming out relative to real world dyno numbers, the closest I could get seemed to be consistently about 10% higher than real world, but it did turn out to be much more consistent that I expected. The closest numbers came from using a Miata cd (.570) and moderate tire/concrete tire friction setting. I used a tire circumference of 75 in (rounded up from 74.95), a 3.89 diff, and gear ratios of 3.5, 2.06, 1.4, 1.03 and 0.08. (short 5th), but I'd appreciate knowing if those are correct.

This has been an interesting discussion that really helped me refine how I look at some of my data. I've never had anyone to bounce this stuff off of, so this has been very helpful. I hope we will see more in the future.

It's to late, we are at the Pro-Built stage. The numbers from the Dyno prove that. If you want to keep it a Junkyard Motor Series then you will need to have a Motor Claimer Provision. $ 500.00 and you can claim anyone in the Top 5 position.

Pete

There's a big difference between a professionally built engine and a cheater. No matter who builds the engine, it should be done to the maximum specs by the rules for compression, clearances, etc.

A $500 claimer rule for our engines is completely unreasonable. The average cost from my experience is about $3K to $5K to completely build a 944 engine including all oil mods, machine work etc. You can build it yourself for about half that with just the machine work. You can use a junk yard build but it won't last without the oil mods.

I think the Spec rules are very well done right now. I ran near pretty much everyone at one point during the Nationals week and I didn't see anyone that stood out as having excessive HP. The fact that thorough tech inspections were done and nothing found supports my casual observation.

This discussion is dangerous ground as it is the sort of thing that tears a race series apart. I saw plenty of that in other 944 series and I'd hate to see it here. I have confidence in my competitors and the leadership that cheating is not a part of 944 Spec.

Motul 47x wrote:



Exactly.

Dirks had the lowest HP out of the top 4 starters, but I guarantee you he still had more than myself and most others in the class. That proves two things... First, that even at a power track like Miller's outer loop, it takes more than just engine power and money invested to win. But secondly, that we do have a huge problem with engines in our class, and you apparently need at least a fresh rebuilt engine to have a shot at Nationals. I think there are a few people without that who did quite well, but they're outnumbered in the upper ranks by people building engines, because "that's just racing" and "my competitors have it, so I have to do the same". As most of the class is hoping to just break 130whp, others are 140+whp.

I can't say I blame anyone unless they've done something to cheat or take advantage of others, but it's obviously not a level playing field, and is certainly not "low cost, equal racing"... The bar keeps being raised, and the intensity, ridiculousness, and "investment" is being taken to a level that far exceeds what's reasonable or sane for a fun amateur hobby. It's the Spec Miata story all over again. Might as well go race Pro, but without any real sponsors or more than a handful of spectators.

Just can't seem to have a competition without things getting taken too far and ruining the whole point of it all.