rd7839 wrote:


It fits because if we don’t take steps to ensure the longevity of this class now, it will hit us in the near future and kill the class completely. We already have dwindling numbers in many of the regions that were once hugely popular. We need to start making some hard decisions on certain items that are becoming increasingly hard to find. Wheels are a no brainer given the practice set by every other spec racing series.

When I was referring to wheels being a consumable and replacing them after an incident I was referring to wheels being physically impacted on the corner involved in the wreck. We just killed two cars at Barber last week end which involved what was basically a T-bone at 60 MPH. The cookie cutter mounted on the front right of the car which impacted the other car was visibly bent and flat spotted. I consider this wheel to be trash now and should not be repaired. The other wheels would understandably be okay to run again because they weren’t involved in the part of the car which was compromised. I have killed 2 wheels without otherwise hurting the car at all. One wheel was a lateral impact to the inside of a curb, and the other hit a pothole at speed.

If we do find new growth and increase the numbers racing, the increased competitiveness will increase the wear and tear. So what we’ve come to is the only way we can sustain the class is through buying parts cars to farm pieces out to the other regions? This is hardly sustainable and is not a valid course of action to keep the class viable. How is the racer that lives in an apartment complex able to buy whole parts cars just for the hard to find pieces he needs to keep racing? Who are you to expect your fellow racers to do that? How much time and effort is undertaken to buy a car just to part it out for what you need?

This wheel change proposal comes down to personal opinion because I’m not going to convince the naysayers that a new rule is needed when their mind is closed to any new rules to begin with. Even rules come up with to distract from this rule change would likely not get supported by the same naysayers who don’t seem to be able to balance improving with rules creep. I understand the desire to avoid rules creep, I also understand the concern about adding significant cost to the series. However, the two most popular racing series in the United States utilize a rule similar to this with great success. I have yet to hear of an instance of creative cheating in either class tied to wheels nor do I see SE30 or SM cars running around on $5000 wheels. As competitive as SM is, don’t you think that would be the norm in a class like that? There are already plenty of ways to spend money in this class. Just look at how much LSDs cost and what performance gain can be had through tuning ramp angles or friction discs. That’s why SE30 has a limit in its rule about breakaway torque. This argument loses sight of the overall benefit I believe this rule has.

rd7839 wrote:


So the early offset phone dial is even harder to find than the cookie cutter. Additionally, it is significantly heavier than both cookie cutter and late offset phone dial wheels which are within ounces of each other in weight. The weight difference between the cookie cutter, late offset phone dial, and proposed wheel is still within the same few ounces we already deal with between the two wheels used by early and late offset suspension cars.

The current average price per cookie cutter on Ebay available in the United States is $284 before shipping costs. Let’s be honest, Ebay and Craigslist are the first two places everybody goes to find parts. Last time I checked Search Tempest nationwide for cookie cutters on craigslist NOT ON A JUNK CAR, there were zero wheels available. But let’s be honest, if you find stuff on craigslist not within commuting distance, it’s not exactly the safest transaction purchasing and shipping.

Lastly, if no new rules is the best course of action then that means the current ruleset is perfect. If it is perfect, then why aren’t we attracting more numbers across the country? Ill update my proposed rule change to include considerations brought forth in this discussion. I don’t think it’s necessary because it complicates the rule, and given how we work together to police our own, we would steer new racers away from ‘innovating’ a new solution which isn’t allowed to begin with.

UPDATED AFTER DISCUSSION

15.9 Rims
Only 15 x 7 inch, one piece wheels with offsets of 23 or 52mm are allowed and a minimum weight of 15 pounds as well as the stock 15 x 7 inch “Cookie Cutter” (ET23.3) or “Phone Dial” (ET52.3) wheel. Wheels must be of one material, unmodified from original manufacturer, and readily available from a reputable reseller. Steel lug nuts must be used. Wheel spacers are allowed as long as the maximum track width is not exceeded. All four wheels must dimensionally match.

Wow, you are hard on cars! Last year it was trans coolers because you were breaking ring gears all the time and now you are going thru sets of wheels like tires. In all my time racing I've never had to replace a wheel and I go off roading all the time. Last year I too had a t bone crash at a fairly good speed. Destroyed the front of the car from the towers forward. I had to cut the front off the parts car and graft it on the racer but the wheels are still in use today. I even ran the flat spotted tire for warmups for a few events!

Not once in my whole life have I heard a person say" Man I'd like to race in that class but those wheels are ugly!" Not once, ever, never, ever, nada, and in case you missed it, never. What I HAVE heard many times over is" I can't afford to race anymore" or the "The class got too expensive" THAT is why we are losing drivers. The perception is that anything Porsche is expensive and adding more cost doesn't help.

Comparing us to other spec series doesn't work either, Miata's and e30's came with cruddy wheels to start. Our cars come with good looking, very strong wheels that are almost always on the car when you buy it. You always say they aren't available but when I look I find them no problem. Right now in our for sale forum there are 3 sets of late phone dials for $130 a set! That's a lifetime supply for most of us. They are there on the east coast so shouldn't be a problem getting them to you. Maybe you guys should buy them and store them for the mythical guy in the apartment complex. I also earlier posted links to other cookie cutters available in different areas. I'm sure if you asked a local 944 guy to help you getting them it wouldn't be a problem. The wheels are out there you just may have to work a small amount to get them.

If you do want to compare us to another spec series how about SRF. They've been going for what, 30+ years and just this year are going thru their second major update. Before that you could buy a first year car that was competitive with a new car and not have to worry every year whether some new rule would come up to make it obsolete. AND MOST USE THE SAME WHEELS THEIR WHOLE SERVICE LIFE! They have strong fields mostly because of rules stability and continuity. We don't have that.

When I first started in spec 944 most of our cars still had license plates and some were driven regularly on the road, to and from the track. Now I can think of only one car out west that's street driven and competitive and that's because Norm H. is a freakishly good driver! Now most of those cars are gone in our area. Why? I know some because the cost to build a dedicated track car got to be too much. That's the definition of rules creep.

Some rules suggestions make sense, like a short shifter. I don't want it but if it will fix some cars then so be it. The cost is not too bad and I think it won't fix anything so I won't have one. Wheels do not make sense at this time. Way too costly and not within the spirit of the class. They won't attract new racers( and do you really want to race a with a guy who's that worried about how his car looks?) and the stock ones ARE easily available and cheap and above all, safe.

Also, who pays to have tires dismounted so the wheels can be weighed and measured? I know if I'm at a national event and you beat me with wheels other than factory I want to see them weighed.

Ron

p.s. if that bent wheel you have can be fixed at a reasonable price, get it fixed and I'll trade you for a manual steering rack

My original point is that COOKIE CUTTERS are getting hard to find and I admitted that phone dials are still very easy to find as evident by what is currently for sale on this forum. I'm sorry I missed out on the good old days as I have no frame of reference on how that version of this class existed. My personal feeling after feedback from my region was that this rule change proposal is overall a benefit for us moving foreword as we try to reinvigorate interest in the class. Obviously we have a difference in opinion and after all, nobody is forcing you to buy new wheels or even put a short shifter on your car should these rules pass. If you prefer to use the stuff that is still perfectly legal and perfectly competitive, then do it.

Now that the personal attacks have started, Ill bow out and let the vote happen. Whats been said should be enough to make up anybody's mind.


PS, Id be happy to dismount my wheels for you to weigh. Thats what I open myself up to by having them. I might event just show up to the event with them unmounted so there is no doubt right off the bat.

Guys does it occur to anyone else that rules change season has become political. Most of the proposals, it seems, are from the SE most of the objections from the left coast and Midwest. The Southeast is almost new to 944 Spec ”new guys”, the coast and Midwest are the “old guys”. The old guys have been racing these cars for a few years, they seem to have the notion that the 944 is perfect and rules as they stand are perfect. It is obvious that they love these cars they have done a great job of building and maintaining the class but I suspect they have also become somewhat complacent. The proposal I have seen so far seem reasonable we all appreciate a well thought out, rational, honest objection, especially when the objection comes from the guys with years of experience. We are trying to build the class in the S.E. Most of the proposals reflect objections to entering 944 Spec. The new guys get in the car and say gee this shift linkage is junk, The old guys have come to accept it and in fact love it as is. Wheels? Old guys “Hell we been running these for years what’s the problem?” New guys “they are hard to find, ugly, may not be all that reliable.” I will submit that we stay with the original intent; inexpensive, equal cars. If a rule change requires all of us to spend, it needs heavy duty rational, same for performance enhancement. If a proposal doesn’t force spending and doesn’t change performance and is optional I just don’t see a valid objection,that is especially true of issues that modernize the cars, make them more user friendly, or contribute to safety. The fact that “we have been doing it this way for years and have not had a problem” may be instructive and interesting but is not a valid objection to a rule change. If you want to drive your car to the track, that’s fine, none of the current proposals would stop you. If you want to maintain your current costs there is nothing in these proposals that would stop you from doing that.

Optional tire well modification proposal: Ok so some of you don’t think we have a fire problem so let’s propose that NASA and PCA exempt our cars from fire protection. Why do we use fire suits, gloves socks fire proof underwear etc. Why carry fire extinguishers? Truth is: ALL race cars have a fire problem, to think otherwise is irrational and dangerous. Gasoline fires are insidious; they will burn you way before you can deploy a fire extinguisher. The best time to put gas fire out is before it starts. Anything that even minutely reduces the chance of a fire is worth objective consideration. Do you truly think that flimsy aluminum bumper is the best we can do? Its 30 years old, how many have been bent, straightened and painted. Did anyone check for cracks and structural integrity? What method did you use? The manufacturers of DPI systems haven’t exactly been overrun by 944 drivers. If a 944 is braking hard and a low slung car is closing fast also braking hard is it imposable for the 2nd car to get under the bumper? Why did Porsche design this car with the tire and well placed as it is? I am using a fuel cell so I don’t have a dog in this fight, using the current rules I can modify my well but it is not an option for cars without cells. The proposal is optional; if you choose not to do this the cost of this proposal implementation for you is ZERO. Cost is not a valid objection for this proposal.

One note concerning safety: Auto racing as with many human activities has a built in bias to not correct a deficiency until after a disaster. Arm restraints for open cars, the HANS device, fire systems, and roll cages were all available, seldom used and only made mandatory after a series of disasters. We just have to be better than that!

Optional Wheel proposal: Implementation of this proposal, if like me you choose to keep what you have, has a cost of ZERO. If a driver wants his car to look good or is nervous about the quality of the wheels why not let him go for it? It costs the rest of us exactly nothing and has no effect on performance. As with the bumper don’t be all that positive you don’t have a wheel with a serious crack, how many of us have tested for cracks especially after straightening or welding? Old wheels and bumpers from the west coast or south have not been subject to the corrosive conditions in the North. Do you know where your wheels have been? The cost of new wheels is probably less than buying a set of OEM’s, buy them, ship them, blast them, have them inspected and then have them powder coated. Neither Cost nor performance enhancement are valid objections for this proposal. That some have used the old wheels for years without a problem is irrelevant.

Optional Short shift kit proposal: This is a driver preference issue, if you like what you have, good for you. But don’t tell others what works for them. They are not telling you to use the kit. Steering wheel position, choice of steering rack, pedal adjustment and seat type, position as well as incline is personal. I am fine with what I have but then again I learned to drive in a 49 Studebaker with three on the tree, most anything feels good to me. I do, however, have to say that my bottom end Mazda Tribute has better linkage than the Porsche. How does the use of the SS affect anyone other than those who choose to use it? Again if you don’t use it the cost is….ZILTCH. Neither cost nor performance enhancement are valid objections for this proposal. Because some of us use the original system and are happy with it is not a valid objection to the proposal.

Mandatory Dyno rule clarification; It is interesting that I have had almost no written comments but several phone calls and one on one conversations on this one. If you are absolutely committed to destroying this class, just override the dyno rule a few more times. If you think Dyno compliance is optional, submit a rule proposal saying so. The old guys complain about a few bucks for a short shift kit or aftermarket wheels. Consider the cost of racing these cars without a power cap. Override the cap a few more times and check out the cost of increasing power. Cost and performance enhancement are the issue.

To me the bottom line is that this is called a spec class. Meaning that all the cars are as close to the same as reasonable. Adding rules that are optional means that the class gets farther from spec.
A rule should be mandatory not optional in a spec class.
Constant rule changes does not promote the health of a class.
We are currently the lowest cost spec class to race. Why add any rules that promote spending and make the cars look different.

I have raced in SM, E30 (currently) and 944 (enduros). We are in the best cars of the 3 spec classes. Please dont screw it up by continually changing the rules.

Let those prospects go to SM or E30. They will be back, both of those classes cost more and have way more body contact.

And maybe the new guys should listen to the old guys who have seen it all before. Granted the 944 is a dated car with a sloppy shifter. But it is faster then either of the other 2 spec classes at least on the west coast.

Hey crooks, I watched your video on youtube and paid attention to your shift lever and how much it moves around. You really do have a sloppy shifter! Mine did that until I rebuilt the front lever and replaced the busihings in the rear. Now it doesn't move around much at all. You might also have some other issue like a bad trans mount or motor mount, or both.