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HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost
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TOPIC: HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost

HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8174

Racers
We the series directors are looking into an issue and more input is better.
My desire is to keep/return 944-spec to low cost equal racing the issue we are interested in finding more information about is do you need a "pro built" engine to compete like spec miata or can you just freshen up a non 88 piston engine. ? If we continue to go the spec miata route then maybe we could add more cars to our racing by allowing other high cost items .

story

I did some work on Scott Boves 4th place car before Nationals when I shared the dyno with Tim C. He asked that I look deeper for non compliance ( the car was built for Cup before I fixed it) as it turns out those numbers were a bit lower than what we saw from others at Nationals...

Another director spoke about how 130-133hp used to be great dyno numbers but now it seems that those numbers will not run upfront.

Ram Air ? does this work and or does it fit with 944-spec in the future ?

Claimer rule ? If you finish in the top 10 you can buy the winners engine for $4,000 ??? I will chime in on this one right away I have never seen a claimer series where the competitors can be or remain friends ...

HP vs weight ? Dyno HP ? Traqmate HP ?

Could we add a restrictor plate to cars making over 130 HP/135TQ or have them make a small change that would give then a smaller advantage while keeping most of our other rules intact ?

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8175

If you are willing to share with me ... Please send me your traqmate data (with exit the track weight) and dyno numbers. The weight of the car is very important.
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during RMR's last event maybe we can work on some of these issues. or ideas

Thanks racers !

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8179

  • Weston
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Yeah, funny how 130-133 whp used to be a strong engine, and now the guy with 137 whp is the one at a disadvantage. These cars only came with 150-160 hp at the crank from the factory, so you really have to ask "what gives!?" with some of the higher numbers measured at the wheels. Do they magically have less drivetrain loss than everyone else, or are they just putting out way more crank HP than a brand new 944 ever did?


Ram Air: I don't see the problem, so long as the car isn't cut up to accommodate it... It's dirt cheap, obvious, and easily available to everyone. Restrict it and you'll just reward those who are turning this into a builder's class, since they'll test to find the coolest and highest pressure spot to draw air from, while other people wont go to such silly extremes. Let it remain legal and then everyone has easy access to it, not just the few who spend R&D time. If we're going to bring the dyno into this, then just ensure that the fan isn't pointed at the air intake.


Claimer Rule: I like the idea, but foresee problems with figuring out the dollar amount, the logistics of it, and people actually using it. I think $4000 is too high for a 944 engine, but expect politics and other drama to prevent anyone from actually utilizing it if it were to become our rule.


HP vs weight: YES, and make torque a factor too! If it's only WHP alone, then you can manipulate intake and exhaust restrictions to give you a bunch of torque while still being under the WHP limit. Torque matters more anyway.

If your car is X whp or torque over the baseline number for the class, then you must run a higher minimum weight, which gets you back to around the same power-to-weight ratio as the baseline. Power-to-weight isn't everything, because the heavier car (ie the higher HP car) will still be faster at higher speeds, but it also has to brake and turn with that weight, which can make it an overall disadvantage. Give the higher power cars some meaningful extra weight and people wont be building silly engines like an arms race anymore, because it will be a weight advantage to have an engine that makes only the baseline whp and torque.

We'll never make everyone's engine the same, but if there's going to be an advantage, it only makes sense to give it to the kind of low-cost nothing-special engine that the majority of our class already has. Make the inexpensive, easily obtainable, engine become the one everyone wants. I'm talking about low compression pistons (which is the overwhelming majority of NA 944 engines), the head isn't shaved to the max, and the valves and rings are still good enough to have a decent seal. In other words, something that you could find in a 944 junkyard.


Restrictor plates: No... too easy to game these. They restrict top-end and peak whp numbers, but torque at corner-exit is far more important and isn't really affected by the restrictor. Spec Miata runs restrictors on some of the engines too, but people still dump stupid amounts of money into building them.
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Last Edit: 13 years, 6 months ago by Weston.

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8180

I am going to let this play out before giving my opinions, but I do want to throw a few things out there to think about:

Are we trying to weed out pro-built motors (edit: "cheater motors" would be more appropriate), or equalize the series around junkyard motor power outputs? These are two different goals. To do this via dyno testing, one requires us to set a HP/TQ limit, for the other, dyno and adjust everyones cars.

Any rule set utilizing a dyno has to account for dyno varation. If we set the limit at 130 (using the example number above), and dynos can vary (at least) 5 HP from one day (or even pull) to the next, then any legal car making more than 125 HP would be at risk for being DQ'd. Or we set the bar at 130 +/- 5 HP (again to use the 130 HP reference)

Are we going to account for area under the curve on the dyno? 944 Cup saw people build killer motors, then muffle them down to the HP/TQ limits. These motors made very beefy/flat TQ curves, but stayed under the limit (unless they developed an exhaust leak).

How often do we dyno? What types of dynos (dynojet & mustang give different numbers)?

Do we have access to trackside dynos to enforce this? Or do we seal a motor and send it off for dyno if there is a protest?

All things we need to consider here!
Eric Kuhns

National Director Emeritus

2007, & 2008 National Champion
2011, 2012 2nd
Last Edit: 13 years, 6 months ago by Sterling Doc.

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8181

  • JerryW
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Also what qualifies as "pro-built" ? My current engine was built by Art at Autopoint Motors (one of our sponsors) but is "just" a standard rebuild that could have been done in my garage. (I mean that there were no shaving to get compression or other tweaks to get horsepower) Are we going to penalize the guys who cant rebuild an engine in their garage ?

When we start implying there is a problem with built engines and that dyno results are required then everyone will feel they have to build the engines.
Jerry Whitteridge
Norcal #552

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 13 years, 6 months ago #8183

Jerry,
You motor is technically pro-built. Anyone who does not have the skills to build the motor at home has a "pro built" motor.

So I would rather not use definitions like that.

Look we directors always need to watch trends and stay one step ahead of the racers.

In effect we have some traqmate data from nationals and it begs some questions. It is probably too soon to bring alot of this up, but Chuck leaned torward openness.

So I don't see this as a class crisis by any means. I still think you can show up to a race with 9.5:1 motor running in good shape and pick-up wins if you can drive it.

As for traqmate and hp. Well if we can find a repeatable method to use traqmate to minimize the impact of small hp variations then great. If not so be it. I just don't want to see people in the series getting down cause that guy has 2 more hp. Really...

Also.. I want to make some thing clear. There is talk that Dirks had the least hp of anyone in the front. Well that is premature. We only dynoed 2 cars and Dirks had more Hp than Palmer. Even so that does not tell much. We had traqmate on two more cars and despite the initial numbers we have looked into the data and found it inconclusive at best. Maybe we can develop it to get usefull data, but we just don't have it right now.

Rememer the sky is not falling.
Joe Paluch
944 Spec #94 Gina Marie Paper Designs
Arizona Regional 944 Spec Director, National Rules Coordinator
2006 Az Champion - 944 Spec Racer Since 2002
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