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HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost
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TOPIC: HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8184

  • JerryW
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Joe - that was exactly my point.

A massive difference to an engine built by Art and one built by Jon Milledge (sp?). Jon knows EVERYTHING possible to do to a motor for power and to keep it legal - Art can build a motor back to factory specs.

(Note I am not implying that the guys with Jon's sponsorship/assistance have any unfair advantage - just the knowledge he (and others) has compared to other engine builders).

I think this percieved "pro--built" HP advantage is a distraction from a pretty good rule set.
Jerry Whitteridge
Norcal #552

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8192

A few years ago 944-spec took away headers and chips. I still feel sorry for one of our largest regions losing so many cars over that BUT it resulted in explosive growth for our class we went from being fought over by Cup and GTS ( who was going to take us over ) to being the largest class in 2 or 3 regions.

Yes "pro built" is not the best word for what we are talking about but I feel we could have legal 944-spec engines making over 142 TQ and 147 legal HP . Those number can be had but it's going to cost you $$$ to get it and I do not think a standard factory spec low compression rebuild or a fresh head/rod bearings engine can compete.

SO my big question is what can we do to grow this class ? How can we say we are "low cost equal racing" best ? I do not feel status quo is going to carry 944-spec into the future.

Change is always bad. 944-spec fading away is worse.
Last Edit: 14 years, 3 months ago by SvoChuck.

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8193

Chips & Headers were taken away because there were actual dynos to show that people could make significant HP with many hours of dyno tuning various chip & header combos. This year, custom chips made for GTS were shown to make 4-6 on a spec car. Taking these away was simple, had little to no net cost for those affected, and made making HP in 944 Spec motor much more difficult. All good things, and needed to be done. Even the best rule changes like this hurt (it took SoCal at least 2 years to recover), but are sometimes needed. The lesson is that we should not take rule changes lightly.

No one has shown that 147/142+ is currently possible without chips & headers. IMO, that rule change has done its job. There is lots of speculation about what is possible, but current reality is that a home built motor won every race at Nationals, running away from "pro-optimized" (to coin a term) motors by nearly 2 sec per lap in the Championship Race. Right now, a national championship caliber motor can be done for around $3K, and last for several seasons. This is not Spec Miata. As Joe, mentioned, the sky is not falling.

What about the future? With regards to "pro optimized" engines, it is a time for close surveillance. We need to look for outliers, find how they make power, legal or otherwise, and tighten the ruleset as needed. It needs to be known that if you are exploring "gray" areas in the rules, you may become a guinea pig on how to tighten the rules, and have your gray area made black and white going forward. Don't complain when this happens, you have been given fair warning. Conversely, if you are not pushing the envelope, you should be able to enjoy a stable ruleset, without having to deal with dynos, or uncertainly. While TM data is not precise enough to justify DQ'ing people over, it may be good enough to identify those motors needing closer scrutiny. Certainly dynos are good enough to make this distinction. We should take a close look at those "outlier" motors to find how they're making more power (when this happens), and tighten the ruleset as needed. Minimal pain (we only hassle the guys making the most power), and we learn how to improve a good ruleset, rather than go an entirely new direction.

As far as low compression motors. I've run one most of the last three years and, like Joe, I'm of the opinion they can compete. However, this remains an issue, and given the choice, we'd all like 10.2 pistons, I suspect. I see several options here:

1) Gather more data about the actual differences (head to head dynos of fresh low & high compression motors?), and make no rule changes now.

2) Allow a spec'd offset crankpin to fix the timing issues that shaving a head causes

3) Spec a widely available, lower cost aftermarket replica of an '88 piston.

4) Spec a weight penalty for '88 pistons (simple, but can be a slippery slope).


Keep the comments coming guys!
Eric Kuhns

National Director Emeritus

2007, & 2008 National Champion
2011, 2012 2nd

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8196

  • Big Dog
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So, what happened to the rest of this thread???????
Jim Foxx

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8197

Big Dog wrote:
So, what happened to the rest of this thread???????


Nothing, but your previous posts are here: 944spec.org/944SPEC/component/option,com...mit,6/limitstart,18/. This topic is now spread over three threads...
Eric Kuhns

National Director Emeritus

2007, & 2008 National Champion
2011, 2012 2nd
Last Edit: 14 years, 3 months ago by Sterling Doc.

Re:HP limit / power to weight / pro built /low cost 14 years, 3 months ago #8198

  • Big Dog
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OK, I see it now.

Thanks.

Jim
Jim Foxx
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